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[原创] HOI III TFH 4.01陆军战斗解析——验证非装甲度和装甲的防护作用

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发表于 2012-10-22 10:34:51 |只看该作者 |倒序浏览
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发表于 2012-10-22 10:36:02 |只看该作者
10块钱拿来~~

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judah1985  好了,现在给钱了啊。  发表于 2012-10-22 22:21
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发表于 2012-10-22 10:58:48 |只看该作者
整个结论就是现在装甲部队也适合防守了,尤其重装甲部队……
不过重装甲的燃料消耗伤不起啊
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发表于 2012-10-22 11:00:40 |只看该作者
难道这一代是重坦的天下?!
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发表于 2012-10-22 11:07:51 |只看该作者
新手学习了 顺便 LZ捞了不少PB

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albert_lee  10块钱~ 嘿嘿  发表于 2012-10-22 11:28
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发表于 2012-10-22 11:26:57 |只看该作者
Wang_Hong 发表于 2012-10-22 11:00
难道这一代是重坦的天下?!

有点这个感觉。
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发表于 2012-10-22 11:27:42 |只看该作者
master69864 发表于 2012-10-22 10:58
整个结论就是现在装甲部队也适合防守了,尤其重装甲部队……
不过重装甲的燃料消耗伤不起啊

英德美苏都玩的起重装甲,其他国家就算了。
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发表于 2012-10-22 12:29:23 |只看该作者
重坦防守肯定没问题 以前版本也是 TFH更强
但重坦的地形适应性不是一般的差
进攻的话会大打折扣
不是不行 但需要好好考虑地形
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发表于 2012-10-22 12:49:31 |只看该作者
yycyycxiaoyao 发表于 2012-10-22 12:29
重坦防守肯定没问题 以前版本也是 TFH更强
但重坦的地形适应性不是一般的差
进攻的话会大打折扣

我不觉得是这样
根据一楼的理论,有50%反伤,本身也是攻击力的一部分,而且不受攻击方地形低效的影响
实战结果也是重坦框框A即可
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发表于 2012-10-22 12:54:22 |只看该作者
另外诸神黄昏剧本,把几个独立重坦营upgrade下,搞点鼠爷守家?
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发表于 2012-10-22 13:43:33 |只看该作者
本帖最后由 yycyycxiaoyao 于 2012-10-22 13:52 编辑
weakcat 发表于 2012-10-22 12:49
我不觉得是这样
根据一楼的理论,有50%反伤,本身也是攻击力的一部分,而且不受攻击方地形低效的影响
实 ...


能破甲当然非常好 破甲的好处也不容忽视
但不能光看破甲的好处而忽略了总体进攻效率

如果攻击效率过低 比如说低于10%或者负数
反弹伤害也没有啥意义了

当然根据地形或者师的组成部分
重坦师的攻击效率不一样
但由于重坦的超低地形适应性
绝大部分情况下用它进攻时必须考虑地形适应性
渡河 森林啥的效果大大折扣

比如说中坦师用来渡河其实也可以
因为中坦渡河才减-5% 但重坦我记得减35% 其他地形也是差距非常大

而且重坦在复杂地形下防御效率也大打折扣
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发表于 2012-10-22 14:01:02 |只看该作者
本帖最后由 weakcat 于 2012-10-22 14:03 编辑

地形只要不把效率压到非常低的程度,重坦仍然是有用的
非装甲度和装甲都能打到保护自己的效果,但2者都具备岂不是更无敌?
重坦师完全可以把非装甲度压到25%以下,同时保有各级装甲指挥官的指挥效率加成
非装甲度25%意味着3/4的软攻失效,对绝大多数高软攻低硬攻的师压力很大
然后这个还要经过重坦师本身的韧性/防御 ,还有不破甲减半 ,一共3层免伤
低攻击效率只不过把战斗时间拉长而已,实战也是单独一个重坦师就能耗光2个步兵军的组织形成突破

当然有些是习惯造成的认知差别
我在1.0时代就在编极限非装甲度的装甲师,比如3重坦2自走之类的,但看论坛上大多数人的装甲师都只有1个装甲团
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发表于 2012-10-22 14:08:25 |只看该作者
当然有人说重坦吃补给,事实是重坦一个6.6补给+燃油,步兵1个是0.67
正好十倍,
当重坦一个能对付10个步兵师的时候,我宁可选重坦
因为当一个省放2个重坦师的时候,对面按10倍的比例至少要堆满20个以上的步兵师,堆叠惩罚高到吓死人
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发表于 2012-10-22 14:23:59 |只看该作者
除非要塞+城市+渡河 ,或者两栖登陆
否则一个3重装师+直属指挥部 的重装甲军足够让任何防线崩溃,打一般的防线1个重装师都已经足够了
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发表于 2012-10-22 16:18:47 |只看该作者

Some notes on land combat in TFH - concepts and statistics (ZT)

To help old and new players to get into TFH, I have collected some information on basic combat stats and concepts. The information is updated to TFH to best of my knowledge. I have included some constants you can find and modify in defines.lua (these are IN CAPS).

These started out as notes to myself which I then extended a bit on information found from wiki, manuals, dev and player comments. I you find errors or something you'd like to see here please feel free to comment so I can make the changes!

Land Combat overview: Statistics and concepts

Strength: How many soldiers the unit is made of, shown in game as percentage of total or absolute number of soldiers.
* Strength is reduced by combat losses and attrition.
* Damage done in combat depends on unit strength (%)
* In combat when taking hits, absolute strength is reduced and determined by LAND_COMBAT_STR_DICE_SIZE and LAND_COMBAT_STR_DAMAGE_MODIFIER (4 and 0.6 by default). Dice size gives the size of rolled dice, and damage done is the dice roll multiplied by (1+modifier).
* Strength is recovered by getting reinforcements (when in supply, not in combat and IC assigned to reinforcements
* Low unit strength may lead to unit shattering


Organisation: A unit's capacity to stay engaged in combat and operate the way it is supposed to, measured from 0 up to 100 (%). Low organisation makes the unit susceptible to shattering or withdrawing from combat. Organisation is affected by the number of officers you have. Calculated for the whole Division and divided to different Brigades.
* Organisation also affects the units reinforcement chance
* Once organisation reaches 1, an unit will retreat from combat
* Unit has to be disengaged and in supply to gain organisation

Organisation is lost:
* In combat when taking hits, determined by LAND_COMBAT_ORG_DICE_SIZE and LAND_COMBAT_ORG_DAMAGE_MODIFIER (2 and 7.5 by default). Dice size gives the size of rolled dice, the result is then multiplied by the modifier and divided by 10.
* When doing strategic redeployment (STRAT_REDEP_ORG_LOSS per day)
* When detaching units from their formation
* When doing paratrooper actions (PARATROOP_DROP_ORG_MULT and PARATROOP_DROP_ORG_MULT_PLANE)

Default unit organisation is affected by:
* Strategic effects
* Discovered techs

Organisation regain rate is affected by:
* Strategic effects
* Nation’s repair rate
* Discovered techs
* Your selected government officials
* Unit morale


Effectiveness: Assigned separately to both attack and defense, this is a modifier of base values for attacking and defending. In combat dialog these values are referred to as Attack and Defend Modifiers. Soft, hard and piercing attack values are modified by Attack Modifier while toughness and defensiveness are modified by Defend Modifier.
What affects effectiveness values:
* Combined arms bonus, Experience, Weather, Supply status (COMBAT_SUPPLY_LACK_IMPACT), Dissent (COMBAT_DISSENT_IMPACT)
* Leaders, division leader increases by 5% per skill level
* Night/day
* Stacking penalty, if any
* Unit dug in status (DIG_IN_FACTOR)
* Terrain (e.g., river crossing gives 70%)
* Strategic effects (Territorial pride)
* Combat tactics
* Multiple combat fronts reduce effectiveness


Combat width: The space a unit occupies on the front line of battle. Two provinces have frontage of 10 in between them, and unit’s participating in combat have to fit to this frontage. When joining combat, unit checks if total width is less or equal to frontage and joins either case applies. Thus, the total width may become larger than true the frontage. Unit which do not fit in become reserves in the battle. Combat brigades always have width of at least one, support brigades become reserves automatically but still participate in combat. Frontage during combat is modified by:
* Combat events
* Increased by 5 for every extra front attacked from
* Combat width can be reduced by different techs


Soft Attack: Attack rating against non-armored targets. Modified by attack modifier. Modified value determines how many shots a unit has during one combat round against soft targets.

Hard Attack: Attack rating against armored targets. Modified by attack modifier. Modified value determines how many shots a unit has during one combat round against hard targets.

Piercing Attack: Attack rating modeling the ability to penetrate armor. If a unit’s armor is greater or equal to attacking units piercing attack, then it will take reduced strength and organisation damage in combat (see armor description below). Note that air attacks by aircraft pierce armor every time. Piercing attack value is not affected by modifiers.

Air Attack: Counter-attack rating against air targets

Armor: A unit’s ability to defend against armor penetrating attacks (piercing attack). If Armor is equal or greater to attackers piercing attack, the unit makes extra organisation damage in combat (Armor on soft). LAND_COMBAT_STR_ARMOR_DEFLECTION_FACTOR and LAND_COMBAT_ORG_ARMOR_DEFLECTION_FACTOR give the reduction unit takes in damage when armor > piercing attack value. Not affected by modifiers.

Toughness: A unit's ability to prevent enemy fire while attacking. Modified by defend modifier. Modified value is used as defence points when attacking and compared to the number of shots the defending unit has (per combat round). One defence point is subtracted per shot and the shot is evaded with BASE_CHANGE_TO_AVOID_HIT (currently 70%). If all defence points are used, then a hit is avoided with probability CHANCE_TO_AVOID_HIT_AT_NO_DEF (currently 48%).

Defensiveness: A unit's ability to defend itself and not take damage. Used in the same way as Toughness when defending, see above.

Air Defence: A unit’s ability to avoid damage inflicted by air attacks

Softness: Percentage of what proportion of the unit is considered soft vs. hard. During combat, this value is used to determine if Soft or Hard Attack value is used against the unit every round.

Suppression: Unit's ability to prevent revolts by rebels or partisans.

Morale: Affects organisation regain speed. Elite forces typically have higher morale than regular ones.

Radio: Higher radio values makes it possible to keep radio contact to HQ from longer distance. On the other hand, higher radio is easier to detect by signal interception (radar stations).

General concepts

Combat tactics: Tactics are used in combat and they typically modify the damage a unit does. Tactics can be seen in the combat dialog. Some tactics have counter-tactics which, if picked, counter the bonus otherwise applied. Tactics are picked by the game depending on tech and leader skill level.

Stacking penalty: If too many combat and supply units participate in combat (that is, actual front line and reserve troops together), all units will get stacking penalty. Maximum allowed number of divisions without penalty is (3 x Number of attack directions) + 1

Combined arms: It is advantageous to mix different types of brigades in one division. This is reflected via the combined arms bonus. The base bonus is 5% per each unique unit type in the division. Different unit types are:
* Infantry (needs to be present to gain any CA bonus, offers no bonus itself)
* Armor (bonus can be increased to 15% by discovering techs)
* Artillery
* Direct fire (AT, TD and AA units)
* Support (Engineers and armored cars)
* None (militia and military police, no bonus at all)

For example, having one infantry, one artillery and one tank destroyer would give 10% bonus (artillery + TD 5% each). On the other hand, infantry + 2 x artillery would give only 5% bonus, as the artillery gives the 5% bonus just once.

Unit cooperation: Bonus given from Human Wave doctrine which lowers the stacking penalty by 5%.

Officer ratio: Current officer ratio is shown in the main interface as the black and white checkerboard flag. Shortage of officers will results in combat penalties and makes the units more vulnerable to shattering. Generation of new officers can be adjusted from the Technology interface by distributing Leadership points (generated by your provinces). Units take 100 officers when built. Officer ratio > 100% will shorten the attack delay. Maximum effective officer ratio is 140% (MAX_OFFICERS).

Attack delay: After combat, units suffer from attack delay before they can operate. This delay can be shortened by certain technologies and having officer ratio over 100%. Default UNIT_ATTACK_DELAY is 168 (hours).

HQ Units: HQs can exist on several levels and are arranged to a Chain of Command (see below). You can arrange your combat forces under different level HQ units as you wish. HQ brigades are not created in production screen but from the unit interface.

Chain of Command: From smallest to largest, troops are arranged as Brigades, Divisions, Corps, Armies and Groups. The top level organizational structure is a Theater. On every level starting from Divisions and up the is a possibility to assign a General to command the troops. This is important, as generals on different levels provide bonuses per their skill level to troops as follows. Further, generals have traits whose effect on actual troops depends on their location on the command structure.

* Theater: Reduced stacking penalty, trait effect 6.25%
* Army group: Decreased supply consumption, trait effect 12.5%
* Army: Increased organization, trait effect 25%
* Corps: Increased chance to enter combat for reserve divisions, trait effect 50%
* Division: Increased combat efficiency, trait effect 100%

Tech bonuses to combat tactics: Different techs increase the likelihood of using different advanced combat tactics

Territorial pride: Bonus given to Axis troops fighting for their cores. Can be increased through some Strategic Effects.
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发表于 2012-10-22 16:40:19 |只看该作者
大致概念上没错,基础理论错了
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发表于 2012-10-22 17:26:55 |只看该作者
看完還是不明白
還是 用數據證實了只有重坦才能對重坦
沒有絕對地型優勢不要打重坦
可惜超重坦14甲 速度只有民兵 地型....>_<"
機步摩步 步兵的穿甲可以打穿裝甲車和自走系列 但輕坦也打不穿
...那FTH AT數量要大量上升才可以
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发表于 2012-10-22 17:32:02 |只看该作者
純步兵+炮兵旅 的威力下降了
裝甲車克民兵
自反克 山地 空降 海軍陸戰 騎兵 裝甲車 輕坦
...想問一下
如果有更高的穿甲 會不會對敵方有更高的傷害?
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发表于 2012-10-22 17:42:58 |只看该作者
yycyycxiaoyao 发表于 2012-10-22 12:29
重坦防守肯定没问题 以前版本也是 TFH更强
但重坦的地形适应性不是一般的差
进攻的话会大打折扣

无论是用什么部队进攻,一定会选一个平坦的进攻路径,我觉得重坦作为进攻的突破单位还是挺称职的,后续推进自然要交给其他机动部队。

集中一批重坦作为突破军团也不错。
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发表于 2012-10-22 17:47:47 |只看该作者
albert_lee 发表于 2012-10-22 17:42
无论是用什么部队进攻,一定会选一个平坦的进攻路径,我觉得重坦作为进攻的突破单位还是挺称职的,后续推 ...


对的
目前AI也只需要一**击砸开防线,即使西线这种防线厚实的,2个重坦军交替进攻足够打开缺口了
事实上也几乎没有打不开的缺口,非要找恶心的地方突破那是自找的
后面交给其他机动部队更好,重坦占地就是找抽
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